MT's Testing (re: Cheezeman's "Bugs...")

[arcanis]

I want to move this discussion over here (from MT forums) since Pedro/Bruno can't take criticism well (most people can't), and they shouldn't have to.

I don't wanna flame about why they don't get external testers and such, but I have what I think is a legitimate question. People kept saying there is risk of the map leaking if you get people to help test, but can't you just get them to help test using a protected copy?

On an aside, I feel this community often looks at ways to shoot other people down, rather than consider their ideas. They ask for change and help, but reject it and get offended when their precious ideas are challenged. Not insulted, but merely challenged. I don't think Cheezeman needed to take such a beating from the community over at the MT forums. And seriously I don't just mean Bruno/Pedro, but the whole community.

[worldtop]

Mar 4, 2009 19:01:00 GMT -5 arcanis said:

I want to move this discussion over here (from MT forums) since Pedro/Bruno can't take criticism well (most people can't), and they shouldn't have to.

I don't wanna flame about why they don't get external testers and such, but I have what I think is a legitimate question. People kept saying there is risk of the map leaking if you get people to help test, but can't you just get them to help test using a protected copy?

On an aside, I feel this community often looks at ways to shoot other people down, rather than consider their ideas. They ask for change and help, but reject it and get offended when their precious ideas are challenged. Not insulted, but merely challenged. I don't think Cheezeman needed to take such a beating from the community over at the MT forums. And seriously I don't just mean Bruno/Pedro, but the whole community.

pursuade them with your points in a moderate way that they can take it. does that ring a bell? LOL
no i wasnt kidding. sometimes it's hard to prove ur points with ppl who dont play enfo often and refuse to embrace new ideas.

get more and more ppl playing enfo map would be first priority cause hopfully more ppl who support your ideas will post it in mt so they cant ignore it(well, they still can)

map testing isnt an issue if there arent many ppl playing enfo map, but when there are enough ppl complaining about bugs in mt, I think they MIGHT start to consider beta testers(MIGHT)
or they just dont believe beta testers will catch more bugs ?!

The time hasnt come yet!
just be patient and grateful that they still updating the map.
LOL
ya I just typed some crap sorry to waste ur time XD

[sloshed]

Did u actually read the post and get the tone of it? if I was Pedro / Bruno I would feel agreeved too. The post sounded like an attack and not a simple complaint which would have been dealt with in another way.

Now as for Beta testers, previously all testing had been done by Bruno n Pedro (pre 1.88/1.89), and since Bruno has moved to England, they both made a decision (before Bruno moved) and got je5us and Gorman to be moderators / beta testers, and since they've been "promoted" Drunkenbunny has also bee promoted to the same status as the others. So there is now 4 people to do the beta testing. All bugs cannot be found.....even with the extra testing.

Now why these people? that was Pedro's n Bruno's decision, basically they know n trust these people for a long time, the trust in these has been built up over a few years, also they've been posting on the MT forum boards for a long time too, also there's probably a few other reasons that we don't know of, so be it.

Getting the community for beta testing is the worst idea that anyone can have. Why? other Enfo map makers copy the MT map, n that is no joke.......they've has problems with CE where they copied the map for their own map. Also for ur suggestion of using a Protected version to help.....well if u had paid any attention to what has been happening about u would know that 1.87 was hacked modified (with cheats), n posted within approx 24hrs of 1.87 being released!!!!!

All it takes is for one idiot to get their hands on the map n then the MT version is f**ked.

As for promoting ideas; all ideas are welcome, but ideas should be kept in line with what's going on with the map. Some ideas that have been brought up are basically from other versions which we do not want. As well as that we want the map to be as original as possible, so that's why so many ideas are shot down.

Look this is not the place to bring this kind of discussion, if u really want a discussion then go back to the MT Forum.

Edit: spelling n some grammer changes

[marx]

Mar 6, 2009 0:36:12 GMT -5 sloshed said:

1.87 was hacked modified (with cheats), n posted within approx 24hrs of 1.87 being released!!!!!

All it takes is for one idiot to get their hands on the map n then the MT version is f**ked.

Look this is not the place to bring this kind of discussion, if u really want a discussion then go back to the MT Forum.

Its not that hard to hack a map . protected or unprotected. Also why bother worrying about ripoff maps? There have been many, none of them succeeded in popularity.

And as for telling people where to go for discussion, I am going to say this sloshed.

There aren't many people in the MT forum who know what they are talking about. The majority of them do not play regularly. Knowing issues in game balance comes from hours upon hours of playing, testing, and more playing. You don't get it by "discussing".

So I really hope YOU know what you are talking about before you begin talking in that snobby condescending tone of yours.

[arcanis]

Sloshed, what is your point in saying that someone hacked 1.87? How does that make it bad for the Enfo MT community to help test? Are you saying that a clan member is more likely to hack it if they are used to help test? I don't see how keeping it out of the hands of clan members is going to help avoid hacking if random people just hack it the day it is released anyways. And to your tone, I pay very close attention.

Also, I agree with marx when he says that people don't really know what they are talking about at the MT forums. Besides, the whole reason we are having this discussion here is because this topic was locked on those forums.

Frankly, I'm getting tired of the elitist attitudes coming from Bruno/Pedro, and now you, sloshed. We all respect that they put hard work into this game, but that does not put them above any of us.

And finally, in response to you saying that that thread was made to sound like an attack, I recall a very large portion of it being devoted to how Cheezeman didn't want to offend anyone, trying to put it as gently as possible. He apologized for any unintended malicious tone he may have used, before any conflict aroused, yet they still beat on him for it. That is really out of hand...and again I will bring up the term "elitist" here, in respect to the attitudes used in handling this matter. It's one thing not to let people express their opinions, but its even worse when they think they are justified in doing so.

I have quit this game entirely, but regardless, I am still contributing to what I think is a worthy cause. Please don't prove me wrong.

[Cheezeman]

Well it seems that all of the experienced members on the forums are against this, and they're probobly right too.
What I don't understand is why?
Could anyone be gentle enough to explain?
On the other hand I could wait until I reveal it myself.

I have more to say about this but because I fail in formulating my questions in a good way, I'll avoid it for now.

Nice seeing you active marx ;D

[sloshed]

I had originally written a big long reply to both u, arcanis n marx but I've decided not to address each of your points and just give what is needed.

What will you think you'll get if you talk about balance, changes n such here? You will get nothing, nothing will change, nothing will happen. Why? because you are discussing it here! Plain and simple. MT Guide is nothing more then a place where people can learn some basics about the heroes, how to use them, what items and shops are available, and what to possible use when in certain situations. That's it! (this is not to take away from the great work that has gone into assembling it by Mort)

If you really want change to happen then go over to the forum, start up a new thread, write and rewrite your arguments for the change, debate primarily with Pedro and Bruno and with other experienced members (I'm not talking about people who have lots of posts but people who have been around for a long time), convince them of your ideas and why the change is for the best. A lot of new members may or may not come up with good arguments, so sort out the good from the bad.

Now if you think there is Elitist attitudes going on, well, maybe you or the other are not communicating in a good manner, meanings and tones do get crossed, especially when you have different backgrounds and are from different places/cultures. (But then again there might be that in a few members.)

MT Forum is the only place where change on the map or how testing is done can happen, nothing will happen here. So I'll say again and I'll be a little bit more polite, please take your arguments and issues to the MT Forum.

Cheezeman-
For testing -
1) Pedro and Bruno do not want strangers to have access to their map, that's in my own opinion the biggest reason why beta version are not released to the Clan Members. How do they (P/B) know what kind of experience they (marx, arcanis, u cheezeman and others) have with the map, especially when they have only recently joined the forum? They don't know you either, so that counts against you. The beta testers that they have now are long time forum members and have contributed a lot too to the map and forum and they know them.
2) The map would never get out of beta testing! No joke, I've been in this situation myself, we have lots of testers but then no final version was ever released. So having a few testers there will help more then having the clan there. All that needs to be sorted are the major bugs, and changes from the previous version. Of course there will always be bugs that can't be helped. Not everything can be found in beta testing.

Now you may think that just set a date and it will all be done, but then people will find a major bug and will only use that versoin of the map, they will be soooo fickle in that they want to win by bug abuse, Yes they are sad for being so, but that happens.

3) Hacking, I won't get into it as it has been explained already in other places n posts.

I hope this explains it to you cheezeman.

Edit:
This is the last that I'm going to post on this issue, if you haven't gotten it at this stage...well......

[arcanis]

Sloshed, I hear what you are saying, but this thread was locked on the MT forums, as I already noted. We CAN'T bring the discussion there because of this. The only reason I am posting this here is because I can't post it on the MT forums. And let's face it, most of the people that are on those forums are on these as well. Only difference is that P/B don't have the ultimate authority here.

[worldtop]

U missed his point.
not in MT, wont be heard.
not be heard, wont happen.

[Pedro]

Only difference is that P/B don't have the ultimate authority here.

I wouldn't be so sure.

[worldtop]

Mar 8, 2009 23:45:38 GMT -5 Pedro said:

I wouldn't be so sure.

Oh i cant w8 to see that

[Cheezeman]

Pedro is a moderator here (or administrator, I don't know really).
If he feels like it he can close this thread, and possibly ban anyone who doesn't follow the rules of the site.
He can even change the rules if he wants to.
But I don't think Pedro would do any of this right now... if would be kind of stupid.

Restarting the discussion here wasn't a very smart idea.
Like worldtop wrote, your opinion won't be heared. If you really want to hear what people think about Beta-testing it you should create a thread in Suggestions and ask what the Experienced members think of it, not new members or members (meaning my voice won't be counted).
This is to aviod these newbies who just want their hands on a pre-release of MT Edition.

I don't see any rules broken since you won't even recreate my thread. After all, I asked a question, I didn't suggest the idea.

[marx]

What is this a power feud? For control on an internet forum?

Isn't making the map better the whole point of this topic?

Look Pedro I appreciate the work you've done on the map, but you and Bruno hold power too tightly to your chests.

YOU have the final say on all changes made to the map, but do you really know whats the best change for the map?

Are you sure that not playing competitive matches helps you understand what's best for the map's balance changes? You take the advice of the "experienced" members of the MT forum who you trust. Trust in what? Even they don't play that much. Hell they can barely make a date to compete in a tourney.

I don't know what you are looking for with each new release. If you are just looking for more players then I have nothing to say. However if that were true you probably abandoned your original motto of MT edition as being the most "balanced" map.



And Bruno once said : "You missed the point."

NO.

This is a GAME.
You understand the game better by TESTING, and PLAYING.
You get better by COMPETING.

You don't prove your points with TALK.

Maybe its time to listen to those who put more time into the above, rather than those who make comments based off of incomplete or flawed knowledge.

[Pedro]

actually, I read every feedback I get at MT boards, that's what a forum is for, isn't it?

and to answer your question, yes, I think I know what's better for the map. You might say that i don't play the map as much as you, but that really doesn't make you more qualified to decide what the map needs. I MADE the whole thing, I know what's behind the scenes, I know what to change if I have to.

What I mean here is that if someone says "Sai deals too much damage, nerf her now!" (as usually happens), I will play her and see if she really needs any change, and then I'll change her or not.

You know, players don't have the right feeling for numbers. I almost never follow a restrict suggestion like "reduce the cooldown from 140 to 120". I decide by myself what will be the new number, because I have a better feeling (actually experience) about it.

But again, if I listen to every suggestion, without filtering them, the map would be a mess. How many times did you read at MT boards something like "add pvp", "bring back the old gizella", "you just killed my favorite [rigged] hero", "you should make players able to teleport to the other side"? I get plenty of those every year, possibly more than real suggestions.

And if this whole mess on this topic is about beta testing (which I doubt), lemme put this straight: We won't ever release a beta version. We took 4 years to invite 3 beta testers (and mainly because bruno traveled to europe). I don't want my version to be hacked like 1 month BEFORE it gets released.

PS: btw, Mort gave me this forums, and I'm the owner now. But I plan to only moderate it and not really post here, unless I really have to.

[marx]

Mar 9, 2009 14:14:13 GMT -5 Pedro said:

And if this whole mess on this topic is about beta testing (which I doubt), lemme put this straight: We won't ever release a beta version. We took 4 years to invite 3 beta testers (and mainly because bruno traveled to europe). I don't want my version to be hacked like 1 month BEFORE it gets released.

My view on this is,

Why bother with beta testing? Just release a version, let players find the bugs, and release a new, more polished version.

That is beta testing isnt it?

Im more concerned about balance issues.
Whoever is more qualified isn't really something you can measure with words. And with the recent changes on the map, I don't think it is something "experience" can determine either.

Or at least, when someone says "Warlock is unbalanced", give that player a chance to prove his point with a replay?